的那些表现。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes, yes.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的，是的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Every day. I love on page 134 when you say, "Although the body is
very intelligent, it cannot tell the difference between an actual situation and a thought. It reacts to every thought as if it were a reality. It doesn't know it's just a thought. To the body, a worrisome, fearful thought means 'I'm in danger,' and it responds accordingly, even though you may be lying in a warm
and comfortable bed at night. The heart beats faster, muscles contract, breathing becomes rapid. There
is a buildup of energy, but since the danger is only a mental fiction, the energy has no outlet. … The rest of the energy turns toxic, interferes with the harmonious functioning of the body."
欧普拉（主持人）：每天。我喜欢第134页，你写到：“虽然我们的身体非常聪明，但是它不能分辨出一个现实发生和一个想象的差别。身体对每一个想象都作出和对待现实一样的反应，它不知道那只是一个想象。对于身体来说，一个令人担忧的，可怕的想象意味着‘我有危险’，身体随即产生相应反应，即使是在夜里你正躺在温暖舒适的床上。心脏跳动加快，肌肉收缩，呼吸急促。能量越积越多，但是由于这危险只是大脑编造的，所以能量无处释放。那么一些能量就转变成毒素，干扰身体功能的和谐运作。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): So that's what you said weeks ago about worry.
欧普拉（主持人）：这是你几周前谈的关于忧虑的话题。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Yeah.
欧普拉（主持人）：是。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): To
see in one's self when worry arises, what we call worry is simply repetitive negative thought patterns.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：当担忧出现时，让我们观察一下自己，担忧就是重复的消极的思维模式。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): That's right. And your body doesn't know the difference. And so all of that energy is inside your body, and that's what makes people sick.
欧普拉（主持人）：正确。并且你的身体不能辨别真假。所以那些能量就蓄积在你的体内，使你生病。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes, yes. So it's very important to clear up your mind so that you stop the continuous negativity of the
egoic self-talk, as we call it. So recognize it, and then step out of that stream of thinking. Use any
device you can. I recommend device number one, to step out of the stream of negative thinking, come into the present moment, take one or two conscious breaths. You've stepped out of the stream of thinking. Or feel the inner body, feel the aliveness in your arms, your hands, your legs. Put your attention there.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的，是的。所以，非常重要的，拥有一颗清明的心，停止那我们称之为喋喋不休的消极的自言自语。把它认出来，然后迈出那思维流，用什么方法都可以。我推荐你一个方法，你就能脱离消极思维，进入当下。很简单：自觉地做一两个深呼吸，你就迈出了那个思维流。或者感觉你的内在身体，感觉你的臂部，手部，和腿部的活力，把你的注意力集中到那里。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Right.
欧普拉（主持人）：好的。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): You have stepped out of the stream of thinking. Or look at something and bring your full consciousness to
the act of perception. For example, a tree or a flower, anything natural is best. Look at anything
natural. Give it your full attention that takes you out of the stream of thinking. Or any natural sound, a bird, the wind.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：你就迈出了那个思维流。或者看着某个东西，集中你全部的注意力去感知它。例如，一棵树或是一朵花，最好是自然的东西。看着它，把你全部的注意力都集中到这里，你就脱身出那个思维流了。或者是任何自然界的声音也可以，鸟鸣，风声。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): To bring you back, really.
欧普拉（主持人）：真正把你带回到现在。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Bring you, or bring you back to the present.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：回到当下。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Bring you back to the present moment.
欧普拉（主持人）：回到此刻。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): These are all little ways in which you can step out of the stream of repetitive thinking.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：这些都是带你走出重复思维的小方法。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): In the story on page 137, the duck with the human mind, love that story. You talk about how the human mind creates me and a my story that keeps negative emotions
alive and personalizes everything, and it's ultimately led our entire species to this, to a precipice. So tell
us the duck story.
欧普拉（主持人）：在137页的那个故事中，有只像人一样思考的鸭子，我很喜欢那个故事。你讲到人类是怎样创造出我和我的故事，然后不断地重播负面情感，并且把所有东西都个人化，最终导致整个人类到了悬崖边缘。给我们讲讲那个鸭子的故事吧。
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ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Well,
I was…
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：好。我……
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): What lessons it has for all of us as humans.
欧普拉（主持人）：我们人类从中得到了什么教训。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): I was writing The Power of Now, and writing about accumulated emotions. And then I was taking a break and went into the park and sat on a bench by a pond, and I saw two ducks approaching on the pond, and suddenly, maybe one duck or, one duck got close, too close to the other. Suddenly they started getting
into a fight.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：当时，我正在写《当下的力量》，正写到积蓄的情感。然后我想休息一下，就去了公园，坐在池塘边的长椅上，我看见池塘里有两只鸭子，它们正在向彼此游去，一只鸭子靠近了另一只，越靠越近。突然，它们开始打架。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Yeah.
欧普拉（主持人）：耶。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): It
lasted for about 30 seconds, and then they both separated, swam off in opposite directions. They were still agitated, both of them, and then both ducks kind of lifted themselves up on the water and
vigorously flapped their wings a few times. They almost stood up on the water, and going [makes
noises]. And then suddenly they were totally peaceful again and swam off.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：打了半分钟，它们就分开了，各自向相反方向游去。可是它们两个都还余怒未消，然后两只鸭子都在水中直起身子，并且用力地拍打几下翅膀，几乎是立在水上向前游去（还嘎嘎嘎地叫着）。最后，它们都完全平静下来，游走了。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): They were doing cleansing breath. Dmitry did from Russia last week.
欧普拉（主持人）：它们还做深呼吸。上周德米特里在俄罗斯也做来着。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE):
Cleansing.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：深深的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Cleansing breath.
欧普拉（主持人）：深深的呼吸。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): And I realized at that moment I had actually been writing about this, and the ducks were showing me how to, how they let go of what otherwise would have become accumulated negativity in the body, and so their instinctive natural intelligence takes over.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：我当时意识到：我不是正在写这些东西吗？这些鸭子给我表演了一遍如何释放那些有可能积聚在身体里的负性能量，最后它们本能的智慧迸发了出来。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Is to, think it off.
欧普拉（主持人）：去除负性影响。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): And then I realized they all do it.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：并且我意识到它们都是那样做。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Yeah.
欧普拉（主持人）：是。
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ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): All
the ducks after a fight do that. And immediately that…
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：所有的鸭子打完架后都那样做，然后马上……
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): It's like clearing their wings.
欧普拉（主持人）：好像在清理翅膀。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Clearing, the energy gets dissipated.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：清理清理，能量就释放掉了。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Wow.
欧普拉（主持人）：哇哦。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): And they are totally peaceful afterwards. And then, of course, they don't have the human mind, which repeats the story of, "What this duck did to me and what I'm going to do to this duck next time," or
"I'm never going to get close to her anymore." Whatever the story is.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：之后它们就完全安静下来。当然，它们不具有人类思维，不会没完没了地想：“那只鸭子怎么那样对我，下次我要怎么对付它，或者是我再也不理它了。”等等等等。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): How dare you come over to my side of the pond again.
欧普拉（主持人）：看你下次还敢到我这块地来。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Oh, yes. And then talk to other ducks about what the other, that duck did to you.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：哦，是的。然后再把这件事告诉别的鸭子，告诉它们那只鸭子是怎样对你的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Yes.
欧普拉（主持人）：是。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): And
all the story-making because the story-making, that still goes on in the human mind, keeps the old emotion alive.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：一遍一遍把自己的故事讲给人听，每讲一遍，旧的情感就再活一遍。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Yes.
欧普拉（主持人）：是。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): So you relive it again. The negativity is relived. The body believes it's still happening.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：重温那件事。负性情绪又被体验一遍。我们的身体即认为那件事正在发生。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Yes.
欧普拉（主持人）：是。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Because the body believes in what your mind is thinking.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：因为身体相信大脑所想的。
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OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Because "although the body is intelligent, it cannot tell the difference between the actual situation and the thought."
欧普拉（主持人）：“即使身体很聪明，它还是不能识别现实发生和头脑所想的区别。”
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes.
So whatever thoughts you're holding, that your body believes that is your reality.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的。所以无论大脑想什么，身体都相信那就是事实。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Wow.
欧普拉（主持人）：哇啊。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): And
the corresponding emotions will arise, and the corresponding physical states of contraction will be there.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：相应情感就会产生，相应的肌肉收缩就会产生。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Wow.
欧普拉（主持人）：哇。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): So this is how—that was the duck's lesson, so I put it into the book.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：所以，这就是鸭子之训，我就把它写进书里了。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): That's right. I mean, and we see so many people, I know I have friends who have been through divorce, and they live and still, you know, hating their ex-spouse and talking about their ex-spouse and what their ex-spouse did to them, and, you know, years after the spouse is gone. Yeah. Yeah.
欧普拉（主持人）：的确是这样。我们知道很多人都这样。我有几个朋友，离婚了，但是还在恨着以前的配偶，经常提起他们，前夫或前妻是怎么对待她（他）们的，甚至是在分开了好几年之后。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes. And so that keeps it alive as if it were still happening.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的。谈论使旧事复活，一如正在发生。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): As if it were still hap pening.
欧普拉（主持人）：好像还在发生。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): And there's an addictive quality.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：人们似乎很上瘾。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): And that's in your mind.
欧普拉（主持人）：在心里。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): It's in the mind.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：在心里。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): That's in your mind.
欧普拉（主持人）：在心里。
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ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): And it's addictive, there's an addictive quality to that.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：上瘾，人们就是对那些事很有瘾。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Right.
欧普拉（主持人）：对。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): You need to see it in yourself to see that, is still the case for some of the people who are listening to us.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：你们大家反观一下自己，甚至是正在听我们课的人，你们之中有些人是不是也是这样的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): So it's like the monks, tell the monk story. I like the monk story; the two monks.
欧普拉（主持人）：就像那两个和尚，讲讲和尚的故事吧，我喜欢和尚的故事，那两个和尚。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：好。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): And the one monk picks up the girl on the road.
欧普拉（主持人）：一个和尚在路上背起一个女孩。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes, that's the story of two monks on a pilgrimage, and they come across, in a village, they come across a young 17-year-old girl with a long kimono trying to cross a very muddy road, but she's not daring to
step into the mud. So one monk picks her up, carries her across the road through the mud, puts her
down. And so the monks walk on in silence for another four or five hours, just practicing noble silence. And then, after four or five hours, they're getting close to their destination, one monk says to the monk who had picked up the girl, "Oh, you know, you shouldn't have done that because we monks are not supposed to even to touch women. So you really, you shouldn't have picked up that girl. You're not supposed to do that." And so the other monk says, "Oh, are you still carrying that girl? I put her down hours ago." So the other monk was still carrying the girl, the event in his head.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的。是两个和尚去朝圣，在村子里，他们碰到一个年方17的年轻姑娘，她穿着长长的和服，想穿过一条泥洼路，但是又不敢。因此，一个和尚背起她过了那段泥洼路，然后把她放下来。和尚沉默地继续赶路，这样又过了四五个小时。然后，他们接近了目的地，一个和尚对那个曾经背起女孩的和尚说：“你知道吧，你不应该那么做。我们和尚连碰一下女人都不可以。所以你实在不该背那个女孩，和尚不能那样。”另一个和尚说：“哦，你还在想着那个女孩吗？我几小时前就把她放下了。”所以，那个和尚一直在大脑里“背着”那个女孩。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Four hours later.
欧普拉（主持人）：“背了”四个小时。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): And for four hours he was walking with this burden.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：他带着这份压力，走了四个小时。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Yes. Right.
欧普拉（主持人）：是，对。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): And that shows the reluctance of the human mind to let go of the past.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：看看人类思维是多么不愿意放手过去。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Yeah. So how many of us reading this chapter are not carrying things from four hours ago, but carrying things from four years and 40 years ago?
欧普拉（主持人）：耶。我们读了这一章，看看我们中多少人不是在萦绕着四小时之前的事，还是在琢磨着四年甚至四十年前的故事？
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ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE):
Yes.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Who still holding onto what was done to them. Yeah.
欧普拉（主持人）：有谁还在想着以前遭遇的不平事。耶。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes, yes. That's a dreadful burden. It's like carrying a useless weight around with you. And some people
carry it from all their lives, and they even derive some identity from that.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的，是的。那是可怕的负担。就像背着件没用的东西。一些人一生都背着那个担子，甚至他们觉得他们就那样了。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Right, right. I had to learn years ago to let go of what had happened to
me as a child because what I realized, you know, my grandmother, the people who took care of me did
the best they knew how to do at the time. And if they had known better they would have done better.
欧普拉（主持人）：对呀，对。几年前，我就不再琢磨我小时候的事了，因为我意识到，我的祖母，她在当时是尽了她的全力，表现出她的最好来照顾我的。要是他们知道能更好，他们不会有保留的。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes, and that is always the case. Whatever humans have done to you, it's always they didn't know any
better because they could only act according to their level of consciousness. Nobody can act beyond
their level of consciousness. So you cannot expect your parents, if you believe they did something that was wrong, you cannot expect your parents to have acted beyond a level of consciousness.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的。经常是这样。人们那样对你，经常是他们不知道怎样是更好的，因为他们的意识水平就是那样。没有人可以超越自己的意识水平。所以，如果你认为父母做错了什么事，请想一想，你不能期待他们表现的超越他们的意识水平。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Cause that's all they knew.
欧普拉（主持人）：因为他们知道的就那么多。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes. Jesus on the cross said it all when he says, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do," which means they are unconscious. So when you realize that, you'll naturally forgive.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的。耶稣在十字架上说曾经说:“宽恕他们吧，因为他们不知道自己做了什么，” 意思是他们是无意识的。因此当你意识到这些，自然你就宽恕他们了。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): That's what Jesus meant.
欧普拉（主持人）：耶稣说的也是这个意思。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes.
If he have lived now he probably would've said, "They are unconscious. They don't know."
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的。如果耶稣现在活着，他可能这样说：“他们是无意识的，他们不知道。”
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Okay. Well Ros is on the phone from Sydney, Australia, and has a question about the pain-body and grief. Hello, Ros?
欧普拉（主持人）：好。澳大利亚悉尼的罗斯正在电话那边等着，她的问题是关于痛苦之身和悲伤。你好吗，罗斯？
ROS: Hi, Oprah. Hi Eckhart. Can I start by saying thank you both so much for helping to make my life feel lighter and less stressful. That's amazing. And for taking the time to answer all our questions. But
in regard to the pain-body, I'd like to clarify, how do we honor the memory of our loved ones who have
died and that we shed tears for and not add to our pain-body? I'm trying to work out, are we adding to our pain-body, or is this the type of sorrow from state of being?
罗斯：你好，欧普拉，你好，艾克哈特。我首先要感谢你们两个使我的生活更轻松了，压力减轻了。太棒了。感谢你们拿出时间来回答我们的问题。但是，关于痛苦之身，我有些东西想搞清楚：我们应该如何去怀念我们所爱的却已经逝去的人，我们为他们流泪却不想加重我们的痛苦之身？我正在思索，我们是在加重痛苦之身还是活着本就有这种痛苦？
，
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OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): You mean when you, the ability to grieve or not?
欧普拉（主持人）：你的意思是，你是否有能力去选择悲伤或者不悲伤？
ROS: Yeah, well, the best way I can describe it is I lost my dad six years ago, and most of the time I
think of him and I have a smile on my face. But sometimes the tears flow for what I think is no
apparent reason. Intellectually, I know crying won't bring him back and I can't change the past, but the tears just come. So am I adding to my pain-body by doing that? I feel I'm honoring my father's
memory, but I'm sad at the time. So is that a negative emotion or is that something deeper down inside
that is a natural thing and it's a part of my being?
罗斯：耶，嗯，我想说说六年前我失去父亲时的感受。我经常想念他，大多数情况，我脸上会带着微笑。但是有时泪水会莫名的流下来。理智上，我知道哭泣不能让他回来，我也知道我不能改变过去，但是眼泪就是不停地流。所以，我是不是在加重痛苦之身？我觉得我只是在怀念爸爸，但是我很难过。所以那是负性情感，还是我内心深处的自然流露-我本来就这样？
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE):
There's a natural mourning, of course, that happens when a loved one passes away. With some people, that also can turn into pain-body, and for example that would be the case if, is an excessive or
exaggerated amount of sadness or depression. Some people, after a loved one dies, go through years of
debilitating depression or they develop even extreme anger. That is also quite frequent that people develop anger when a loved one dies. And those are instances when the pain-body becomes activated
through the death of a loved one. But that does not seem to be the case with you. So to allow mourning
to happen, when it happens, can actually be a beautiful thing. Your mind, observe what your mind is
doing and what kind of thoughts your mind is generating when you go through these periods of sadness
or crying. Maybe your mind is not saying much at all. Maybe there's just emotion. And that can be
quite beautiful, simply to allow this emotion of sadness, which is natural, after all, when somebody has passed away or when you remember a loved one. Allow this emotional sadness to be there, and you
may actually find that underneath the sadness, there's still some peace. When you allow the emotion of mourning to be there, then you realize that underneath the seemingly negative emotion, there's still a deeper peace. I found that when my parents passed away a year-and-a-half ago, both of them within a
few months, the sadness came, tears came periodically, and yet, through the acceptance of the emotion,
there was an underlying peace that was deeper, even than the sadness. And so, and that comes with the acceptance of the emotion. And that's important for you. So I don't believe that in your case this is the pain-body. But I would suggest that you observe or perhaps you can tell me now what kind of
thoughts your mind produces when you go through these periods of sadness or weeping. What does
your mind say?
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：当然，亲人逝去之后，我们会悲痛。对于一些人来说，如果太过于悲伤低落了，那有可能成为痛苦之身。有些人在亲人死后好几年，一直悲痛甚至变得极端愤怒。亲人逝去后人们很愤怒，这也是常有的事。这种情况就是痛苦之身被亲人之死激活。但是你似乎不是这样。所以允许自己悲伤，悲伤也可能是一件美丽的事情。观察你的心，当你悲伤时，你的心正在做什么，你的大脑正在想什么。或许你的心什么也没说。或许心中仅仅装着情感。当亲人逝去，当怀念所爱的人，就让悲伤自然地流淌，这是很美的感受。就让悲伤在心里安住，也许你会发现，在悲伤的下面，还有一些平静。当你允许自己悲伤时，表面看是负面情感，但是在这下面，似乎有一份更深层的平静。一年半前我失去了我的父母，我才有刚才那种体会。他们两个在几个月内相继去逝，悲伤袭来，泪水涟涟，然而我接受我的悲伤，由此我发现，甚至是在深深的悲伤下面，还有一层更深的平静。所以，接纳悲伤，这对你很重要。因此，你的情况不是痛苦之身。但是，我建议你注意观察自己，也许你现在就可以告诉我当你悲伤哭泣时你的心里正在想什么。你的心在说什么？
ROS: Well, usually at the end I end up smiling again. It's just that I wonder whether the tears were a negative thing, or now, I don't suppose tears are a negative thing. But there are just times when I
suppose it's that sense of loss that comes with it, which I know is, in a way, is adding pain to your life, but it's something you just, now I don't know, how do you explain, the void you feel inside when you
lose someone. Admittedly, I'm not getting depressed about it, thank God, but I just wondered whether,
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you know, logically I was adding pain to my life or whether it's just is something that if you can't stay detached and observe, you realize it's just part of who you are.
罗斯：哦，通常是在最后我就开始笑了。我只是想知道流泪是消极的事还是，现在，我觉得它不是消极的事。但是，有时伴随着悲伤会有那种失去的感觉，令我很痛苦，我不太会描绘，你怎么理解，就是那种失去亲人后内心的空虚。实际上，我没有特别消沉，感谢上帝，我只是想知道，是不是我在给生活增加痛苦，还是如果我不能将它分离开，它就成为了我的一部分。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): I think it is a part of who we are, and I recently just lost a loved one who happened to be a four-legged animal, my beloved little Sophie, I lost.
欧普拉（主持人）：我想它是你的一部分。我最近刚刚失去了一只四条腿的动物，我心爱的小索菲。
ROS: Sophie died?
罗斯：索菲死了？
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Yeah.
欧普拉（主持人）：是。
ROS: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.
罗斯：哦，听到这个消息我感到很遗憾。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Yes. And, you know, unless you have an animal who's a member of
your family, a lot of people don't understand, but she was a member of my, she was as close to me as anybody has ever been in my life. And I will have to say that I miss her little body and I miss the, as I know you do with your loved one, you miss, I miss the physicality of her because she slept with me every single night, came to work with me every single day, has been at every event for the past 13
years. So I miss her physical body, but I actually feel closer to her, to the spirit of her, to the soul of
her. I feel that the density of the body has allowed the spirit of her to be with me in a way that I never could really fully appreciate or absorb. So I actually feel closer to her. I feel the love that she was, in a way, that I did'nt even feel when she was alive. Yeah.
欧普拉（主持人）：是。除非你有个动物就像你的家人一样，否则难以体会。很多人不理解，但是，她就是我的家人，她就像出现在我生命中的人一样和我亲密无间。我想念她的小身体，就像你对你所爱的人一样，我想念她毛茸茸的身子，因为在过去的13年里，她每个晚上都和我睡，她每天都跟我去上班，每个场合都有她的身影。所以我想念她的身体，但是实际上我感觉离她更近了，她的精神，她的灵魂。我觉得是她的身体应允了它的灵魂来继续陪着我，这是我以前未曾体会到的。所以我感觉离她更近了。我感受到了甚至是在她生前我不曾体会的爱。是的。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes, yes.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的，是的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Did you sense that with your parents too?
欧普拉（主持人）：你对父母也是那样的吗?
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes, yes.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的，是的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): So that's the peace you're talking about.
欧普拉（主持人）：那就是你以前说过的平静。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes. 艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): And actually, she died on the second night that we were doing this, on
March the 10th. And I went home in the middle of the day, she died early in the morning. I cried, you know, all afternoon, I came here and allowed myself to be, to accept it, to go to that place where, all right, she's gone.
欧普拉（主持人）：实际上，她是三月10日，我们的系列课堂开始之后的第二天晚上死的。我中午回到家，发现其实她清早就死了。我哭了整个下午，晚上我来到这里，我允许自己悲伤，我接纳那个事实，一点一点的，我的心逐渐地认识到：是的，她死了。
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ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): She's gone. I'm not going to say, "Oh, why is she gone? Oh." All right, she's gone.
欧普拉（主持人）：它死了。我不会问:“她为什么会死？啊。”是的，她死了。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes, and that's the acceptance. The acceptance…
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的，这就是接受。接受……
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): And a peace comes with that. Yeah.
欧普拉（主持人）：之后才有了平静。是。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes. Because the void is the word, because a void is left when the form that was there, the body that was there suddenly is no longer.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：还留下了一个空白。因为心中曾有的样子，曾有的身体突然不见了，心中的那个地方就留白了。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): That's right, that's the void you feel.
欧普拉（主持人）：是这样的，所以你就感觉到了空虚。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): And that's the void, now, the void, when it's resisted, and it is resisted especially by the ego, the ego hates
it, the ego doesn't want the void to be there, but when you can accept that now there is the void instead
of the body, then something else shines through that void, which is formless.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：那份空虚，如果它受到抵制，尤其受到自我的抵制，自我非常厌恶它，自我不想让它呆在那里。但是，如果你接纳了它，现在是它在那，而不是你爱的人在那，那么就有光芒穿透了它，它其实是无形的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Right.
欧普拉（主持人）：是呀。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): So where the form once was, the formless can now shine through.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：所以，失去亲人的那份有形之痛就化作了无形。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Absolutely.
欧普拉（主持人）：的确如此。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): And that's the beauty, then that's the grace that is hiding behind death or whatever, death of whatever kind.
So there's always that. You have to look for that.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：那是一种美，那是藏在死亡和其它种种失去背后的优雅。从来都是这样的，只是你要自己去寻找它。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): I see that. I see that. Do you see that, Ros?
欧普拉（主持人）：我明白了。我明白了。你明白了吗，罗斯？
ROS: Yeah, that's inspirational. [unintelligible] makes me feel better now. Thank you.
罗斯：是的，非常鼓舞人。我现在感觉好多了。谢谢。
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OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): And what happens is, what happens is, Ros, if we spend our time…I
always say when somebody you love dies, you now have an angel you know, and you can call the
angel formless, or consciousness, or being, or whatever, but what happens is so many people are just caught up in the grief of it and the loss of it and resisting and wanting it to be the way it was.
欧普拉（主持人）：究竟发生了什么事，罗斯，如果我们花时间想一下…，我一直觉得当你爱的人死去，你就拥有了一个天使，你可以说这个天使是无形的，无意识的，是一个存在，还是其它什么，都没有关系。而现实情况是：那样多的人就是沉浸在悲伤里，沉浸在失去里，抗拒发生的事，只想回到从前。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes. Yes.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的，是的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Trying to hold onto the way it was.
欧普拉（主持人）：像从前那样生活。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Instead of accepting what is, and they don't allow the grace of the formless to come through.
欧普拉（主持人）：而不是接受已经发生的事，他们不允许那份无形的优雅照进心里。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): That's right. And the grace cannot come through. That's right.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是这样的。那份优雅透不过去。是的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): I got that.
欧普拉（主持人）：我明白了。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yeah.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：对。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): I hope you got that too, Ros.
欧普拉（主持人）：我希望你也明白了，罗斯。
ROS: Yeah, thank you. That was, that was lovely. I really appreciate it.
耶，谢谢。非常好。我真的很感激。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Thank you.
欧普拉（主持人）：谢谢。
ROS: Okay, God bless you both.
罗斯：好，上帝保佑你们。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): God bless you.
欧普拉（主持人）：上帝保佑你。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Thank you.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：谢谢。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): I love when you say that sometimes understanding the science, for me, sometimes understanding the science behind these concepts, as you're talking about, makes it easier.
And you say on page 146, "All things are vibrating energy fields in ceaseless motion. The chair you sit
on, the book you are holding appear solid and motionless only because that's how our senses perceive their vibrational frequency, that is to say, the increased movement of the molecules." And so we're all
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vibrating at different frequencies, and the vibrational frequency of the pain-body resonates with that of negative thoughts.
欧普拉（主持人）：我非常喜欢你说：我们需要懂点科学。对我来说，有时，搞懂了这些概念背后的科学会使事情变得容易些。就像你在146页所说的：“所有东西都是在不停振动的能量场。你坐的椅子，你拿着的书好像是固体的，静止的，只是因为我们的感觉就是那样感知它们的振动频率，也就是分子的越来越快的运动。”所以，我们都是以不同的频率在振动，痛苦之身与负性思维产生共振。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes. Negative thoughts or, and other negative emotions coming from other people.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的。负性思维和其它来自其他人的负面情感。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): And then I love that you say this on page 152, you write on page 152, I
think this is great here. "If you were not familiar with our contemporary civilization, if you had come here from another age or another planet, one of the things that would amaze you is that millions of people love and pay money to watch humans kill and inflict pain on each other and call it
'entertainment.'" When I read it, I thought, yeah, if you're from another planet, you'd think, "What is that?" So what is that that people love that? I mean, the most violent movies, particularly this year for Academy Awards, most of the movies were violent movies, destructive, you know. All those pain-
bodies up there on the screen. And what is it about a lot of the public that enjoys that?
欧普拉（主持人）：在152页，你写的我很喜欢。我觉得写的特别棒。“如果你不熟悉我们的现代文明，如果你来自另一个时代或另一个星球，有一件事情你会感到特别奇怪：那就是数百万的人热爱并且付钱去欣赏人类相互杀戮相互折磨给彼此增加痛苦，并且称之为‘娱乐’。”当我读到这里时，我在想，如果你是外星人，你会问：“那是怎么回事？”所以，人们喜欢的究竟是什么？是那些非常暴力的电影吗？尤其是今年的奥斯卡获奖影片，大多数都非常暴力，非常破坏性。屏幕上都是那些痛苦之身，那么大众喜欢的究竟是什么？
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Well,
it's the, if it's, in some cases, violence may actually helpful to see because it shows the human madness.
If it shows the wider context in which violence happens, if it shows the psychological dysfunction behind violence, then it can be helpful. But most of these movies are, contain violence that is actually
meant to feed the pain-body. And it is the pain-body in the viewers who enjoy those films that enjoys
the violence. But it's not actually the people themselves who pay money to see these movies, it's the pain-body in them that feeds on the violence that it watches. And the people who produce these
movies probably…
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：哦，在有些情况下，暴力片对人们有所帮助，因为它展现了人类的疯狂。如果能够将暴力发生的广阔背景展现出来，如果能展现出那些暴力背后的心理机能障碍，那就会对人们很有帮助。但是大多数影片包含的暴力都是去喂养痛苦之身了。事实上，是观众的痛苦之身喜欢这些暴力电影，而不是观众本人付钱去看的这些影片，痛苦之身享受着电影，吃饱了肚子。生产这些电影的人也许……
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Their pain-bodies are writing them.
欧普拉（主持人）：是他们的痛苦之身写的这些电影剧本。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): The
pain-bodies write them, the pain-bodies write the movies, the pain-bodies produce them, and the pain- bodies watch them.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：痛苦之身写的故事，痛苦之身编成电影，痛苦之身生产电影，痛苦之身观看电影。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Well, this comes from a screenwriter, Lana, who's in her study in
Copenhagen? And has a question.
欧普拉（主持人）：哦，编剧莱娜正在她哥本哈根
的书房里等待我们，她有个问题。
LANA: Copenhagen.
莱娜：哥本哈根。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Copenhagen. Hello, Lana from Copenhagen.
欧普拉（主持人）：哥本哈根，你好，哥本哈根的莱娜。
LANA: Hi Oprah. Hi Eckhart.
莱娜：你好，欧普拉。你好，艾克哈特。
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ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Hello.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：你好。
LANA: Eckhart, I also have a cold, so I hope I sound as sexy as you do. So yes.
艾克哈特，我也感冒了，希望我听起来也像你一样性感。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): I like your flowers on the wall, may I say? I like your art. Is that your, did you take those pictures yourself?
欧普拉（主持人）：我喜欢你墙上的花，我喜欢你的艺术。是你自己拍的那些照片吗？
LANA: Oh no
莱娜：哦，不是。
.
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Oh, okay.
欧普拉（主持人）：好的。
LANA: I bought it from somebody.
莱娜：我从别人那里买的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Okay, okay, great.
欧普拉（主持人）：好，好，很棒。
LANA: Yeah. But, I'm a screenwriter, I'm also a producer, and after reading this chapter it just floored
me on so many levels. I write pieces that involve scenes that may have violence, it may have a death, it may have rape. But I try not to be gratuitous, but after reading this chapter, I wasn't quite sure how to
be sure. And one particular experience that I had really kind of put me in a tailspin about how to create
content, how to create media projects going forward after reading this book. I had a few friends over for dinner, Danish friends of mine, and I've learned so many from the Danish people, they're wonderful, wonderful people. And at the time there was in the news at the beginning of this year, a lot of what
they call second generation kids were burning cars here in Denmark. And a friend of mine made the
comment to me, "Well, I don't understand how people can burn their own neighborhoods." And that hit
me like a ton of bricks. And although I was too young to remember the riots after Martin Luther King died, I remember that comment being spoken by Americans. So here I am in Denmark and kind of
hearing the same ty pe of conversation. And I felt like my first response was, "I've got to do a
documentary on this." And so I started making the phone calls to do whatever I needed to do to talk to traditional Danes and also, second generation Danish people. But then I read the chapter, and I
wondered whether or not my pain-body as an African-American was now entering into this situation,
and you know, creating something that may kind of negatively affect the pain-body of another group of people. So I questioned whether or not I wanted to do this documentary.
莱娜：是，我是一个剧本作家，也是一个制片人。读完这章，我非常困惑。我写的剧本里会有暴力，会有死亡，会有强奸，但是我尽量不滥用这些情节，可是在读过这章之后，我不是十分确信我能做到。我现在有一种特别的感觉就是，读过这本书之后，我不知道怎么去创作了，不知道怎么去开发运作新的媒体项目。一次，我和几个丹麦的朋友吃饭，我从丹麦人身上学到了很多东西，他们特别特别棒。那是在今年初，新闻里报道：许多他们所谓第二代的孩子们焚烧汽车。我的一个朋友说：“哦，我弄不懂他们怎么会烧他们自己邻居的汽车。” 这件事对我深有触动。虽然我还年轻，只知道马丁路德金，但是我还记得美国人说的那些话。因此，现在我在丹麦，我好像听到了同样的话，我的第一反应就是：“我要针对这件事做个纪录片。”因此，我开始打电话，找传统的丹麦人和第二代丹麦人谈话，做各种必要的工作。然后我读到了这一章，我在想：是不是我自己的非洲裔美国人的痛苦之身正在活跃，它正在创作某些东西，这将会激活另一群人的痛苦之身。因此我问自己我是不是要做这个纪录片。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): So what is your question? What is your question to us?
欧普拉（主持人）：所以，你的问题是什么？你想问我们什么？
LANA: My question is, in this situation that I just described, the pain-body that led me to come up
for the idea for this documentary, I think it comes from my experience of being an African-American.
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And that I want to bring people together, I want to kind of not allow a situation that's not necessary to just go unchecked. And I feel like media can do that. A documentary can open up that dialogue. But I'm wondering if my pain-body, since it created this idea for a documentary, is this something that will
help both sides, or am I just speaking to pain-bodies, to other pain-bodies?
莱娜：我的问题是，在我刚才所描述的情况下，是痛苦之身引领我去做这个纪录片，我认为它源自我自己是一个非裔美国人。我想把人们组织起来，我不想让不必要的事情发生。我觉得媒体在这件事上能起作用，一部纪录片能促成沟通。但是，我同时想：是我的痛苦之身要做这个纪录片，那么这会帮助到双方吗？是不是我只是要对痛苦之身说话，对别的痛苦之身说话？
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Well,
I don't believe necessarily that your pain-body came up with the idea of making this documentary
about the violence that's happening in Denmark. And I believe that you will probably show the wider context in which this violence happens and the root causes of this violence, not only historical but perhaps also psychological. And if all these things are included in the film, then to show violence can actually fulfill a useful purpose. That's why I mentioned in the book that some of the most powerful
anti-war films were war films because those films showed the reality of war, not some glamorized
version of war for the pain-body to feed on. So if you show reality and the underlying causes and the wider context, then those films are not going to feed the pain-body because they will help people
become more conscious and perhaps not prematurely judge the people who are carrying out these acts
of vandalism or whatever it is, to see perhaps what lies behind it.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：哦，我并不认为是你的痛苦之身要做这个发生在丹麦的有关暴力的纪录片。并且我相信你会呈现出暴力发生的广阔的背景和暴力的根本原因，包括历史的和心理方面的。如果所有这些都出现在影片里，那么展现暴力则会履行一个非常有用的目的。这就是我在书里谈到的，那些最有力量的反战电影正是展现了战争现实，而不是为了喂养痛苦之身而渲染战争。因此如果你反映现实，展现事情发生的根本原因和广阔背景，那么这些影片就不会喂养痛苦之身，因为它们将帮助人们提升意识水平，而不是冒然的去评判那些发动暴乱之人或者其它什么，帮助人们认识到暴乱背后的问题。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Correct. Thank you Lana, thank you so much. 。
欧普拉（主持人）：正确，谢谢你，莱娜。非常感谢。
LANA: Thank you.
莱娜：谢谢。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): I think it's interesting, though, on page, what Lana's talking about, what you talk about on page 159, that as there are individual pain-bodies that each of us carries because of whatever negativity happened in our lives and we didn't completely deal with that at the moment, that there is also a collective pain-body that nations carry and races carry. And you say, "The collective
racial pain-body is pronounced in Jewish people who suffered persecution over many centuries. Not
surprisingly, it's strong as well in Native Americans, whose numbers were decimated, whose culture all but destroyed by the European settlers. In black Americans too, for whom the collective pain- body is pronounced. Their ancestors violently uprooted, beaten into submission, and sold into slavery. The foundation of American economic prosperity rested on the labor of four to five million black slaves. In fact, the suffering inflicted on Native and Black Americans has not remained confined to those two
races, but has become part of the collective American pain-body. It is always the case that both victim
and perpetrator suffer the consequences of any acts of violence, oppression, or brutality. For what you
do to others, you do to yourself." I think that there is not an understanding, and actually, Senator
Obama in his speech a couple of weeks ago was trying to speak to this. This collective pain-body that
America holds. And I think a lot of Americans, number one, don't know it exists and want to deny that
it does exist because they say, "I didn't have anything to do with slavery," or "I didn't have anything to
do with the Native Americans." Correct?
欧普拉（主持人）：我觉得很有趣，刚才莱娜谈到的，也就是你在159页说的，在我们的生活中，由于某些负性事件发生，当时我们又没有把它完全解决掉，所以造成了我们每个人的的痛苦之身。除了这些个人的痛苦之身，不同民族不同种族也存在集体的痛苦之身。你说到：“种族的痛苦之身反应在遭受了几个世纪迫害的犹太人身上;还有土著印第安人的痛苦之身，他们遭受大屠杀，他们的文化几乎被欧洲殖民者完全毁掉。;还有美国黑人的痛苦之身，他们的祖先被暴力铲除，他们被拷打至服从，被卖做奴隶。美国经济的繁荣就是建立在四五百万黑人奴隶所提供的劳动的基础上。实际上，土著印第安人和美国黑人的遭遇不是仅仅体现于这两个种族本身，而是成为了美国人集体的痛苦之身。情况经常是这样，加害者和受害者双方都将承担任何暴力，压迫和残暴，所带来的后果。你对别人做了什么，你对自己也做了什么。我认为双方之间没有理解，事实上，参议员奥巴马在几周前的演讲中努力说明这一点：这是全体美国人的痛苦之身。我认为，第一点，很多美国人不知道它的存在，并且否定它的存在，他们说：“我与奴隶制度没有任何关系，”或者“我和土著美国人更是没有一点关系。”对吧？
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ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes,
that's right. Yes.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：情况是那样。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): And to not to recognize it is what? Is to be in denial of what is the truth.
欧普拉（主持人）：不承认意味着什么？是对事实的否定。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes.
And then it continues to be there without you knowing it.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的。那么它仍旧在那里，而你却不知道。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): That's right.
欧普拉（主持人）：正确。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): So that's, that's where…
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：所以那就是……
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Cause the recognition of it is the beginning of being able to change it, right?
欧普拉（主持人）：因为承让它才可以改变它，对吗？
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes, that's right. And I believe since you mentioned Senator Obama, there was this controversy about the pastor who was making certain remarks. I believe that the pastor who has probably helped many,
many people over many years, occasionally, when he speaks, as far as I can tell, he gets taken over by the pain-body.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的，正确。既然你提到参议员奥巴马，我知道他的某些言论引起了一些争议。我相信这位牧师多年来帮助过很多人，但是，就我所知，偶尔他的痛苦之身就冒头出来。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): By the pain-body.
欧普拉（主持人）：痛苦之身。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): And then the pain-body speaks through him. And it's understandable and I think beneath, Obama
understands that, although he may not use the term, or be familiar with the term, "pain-body," but he
understands the wider context for those remarks and he realizes that it arises out of the collective pain. So, and once you see that these things arise out of the collective pain, you can see them in a much
wider perspective, and you don't personalize what this person is saying. It's not personal anymore. He's expressing collective pain.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：然后他就成了痛苦之身的代言人，这可以理解，我想在内心里奥巴马也一定知道，虽然他可能不使用也不熟悉痛苦之身这个词，但是他知道那些言论产生的巨大背景，他也知道那些话是出自于集体的痛苦之身。因此，一旦你知道这些东西源自于集体的痛苦之身，你就大大的放宽了眼界，你就知道不能把某个人所说的话完全地个人化。那不再是一个人的事情，那是集体的痛苦之身。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): You also talk about this when it comes to women. Pretty revolutionary
on page 155. You say, "The suppression of the feminine principle especially over the past two thousand years has enabled the ego to gain absolute supremacy in the collective human psyche.
Although women have egos, of course … the female form is less rigidly encapsulated than the male, and has greater openness and sensitivity toward other life-forms. … If the balance between a male and
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female energies," I found this so fascinating, "had not been destroyed on our planet," you say, "the ego's growth would have been greatly curtailed. … With many people becoming more conscious, the ego is losing its hold on the human mind. Because the ego was never as deeply rooted in women, it's losing its hold on women more quickly than on men."
欧普拉（主持人）：鉴于此，你也谈到了妇女问题，在书的155页，你的观点颇具革命性。你说：“过去两千年来对女性的压迫使人类将自我摆在至高无上的位置。女性也有自我，当然，但是女性不像男性那样把自己密密的包藏在自我里，女性对待其他生命形式更开放更敏感……在我们的星球上，如果男女之间的能量平衡没有被破坏，那么自我的成长历程就得以大大地缩短了……”我觉得这里特别有意思。 随着更多人意识层次的提升，人类心灵逐渐脱离自我的掌控。因为女性的自我不具有那样深的根基，所以女性比男性更快摆脱自我的绳索。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes, yes. And…
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的，是的。而且……
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Yeah. It's, you know what, reading this as a female living in the world today, able to make choices, and be my own person, and express myself, I had forgotten about the years and years of torture and sup pression and, you know, killing of women were the most natural
things because you liked animals, because you were a midwife, because you were a woman who wanted
to have a voice.
欧普拉（主持人）：是。你知道吗？读过这段之后，作为女性生活在世界上，我们能够选择，能够做自己，能够表达自己，我甚至忘记了多年以来女性所承受的的痛苦和压迫，大家都知道的：在那个时代，女性无端的被杀害，仅仅因为喜欢动物，因为是接生婆，因为想拥有发言权就会被杀死。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Tortured, killed.
欧普拉（主持人）：被折磨，被杀死。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes.
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的。
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Hundreds of millions of women.
欧普拉（主持人）：上百万的妇女。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes. And it's the, what I'm saying is the arising ego…
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的。那就是我称之为自我膨胀时期……
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): And that happened because of the ego in the male.
欧普拉（主持人）：男性的自我膨胀。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): Yes, yes. So it's not the male as such, it was the growing ego…
艾克哈特·托尔（《新世界：灵性的觉醒》作者）：是的，是的。所以不是男性那样，是那个成长中的自我……
OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): Rising ego.
欧普拉（主持人）：那个上升的自我。
ECKHART TOLLE (AUTHOR A NEW EARTH: AWAKENING TO YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE): …in
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